Kailand

My calculations are only for any hunters base numbers, no talents have come into play. Plus these calculations are only valid for the 2:1:1 AP:AGI:CRIT ratios which are commonly found for gems and enchants. For example the +8 AP/+4 crit gem would be slightly worse then a +8 AGI gem for all specs all of the time, but might be better for a slot depending on the socket bonus. The reason I started this was deciding whether the +70 AP weapon enchant was better than the +35 AGI weapon enchant. With my build, the DPS points which AGI is better is: +8 AGI --> (8*1.15*1.04/14 + x)*(1 + 8*1.15/40*0.01) - x +16 AP --> 16*1.04/14 +8 crit --> 8/22*0.01* x AGI::AP 16*1.04/14 = (8*1.15*1.04/14 + x)*(1 + 8*1.15/40*0.01) - x --> x = 218.94 DPS AGI::CRIT 8/22*0.01* x = (8*1.15*1.04/14 + x)*(1 + 8*1.15/40*0.01) - x --> x = 512.59 DPS so with my build AP was better until 218.94 DPS, then AGI is good until 512.59 DPS, then CRIT is better.

Hi, for my brother hunter's in the clan I have done some calculations into when +AGI > +AP based upon what your dps will be. Using the following formula's involving rap/crit/agi/dps (these can be found on the net, I'm too lazy to find a site to link): 14 RAP = 1 DPS 1 AGI = 1 RAP 40 AGI = 1% Crit Now, say if you are choosing between a +16 AP gem or a +8 agi gem, and your DPS is X, the overall DPS change will be: +8 AGI --> (8/14 + x)*(1 + 8/40*0.01) - x ~= (0.57 + x)*(1.002) - x = 0.57 + 0.002 * x +16 AP --> 16/14 = +1.14 DPS Since the average damage added by crit is dependent on you current DPS, the higher your DPS is, the more crit gives you, so, solving the equation formed by equating the 2 above equations yields: 1.14 = 0.57 + 0.002 * x --> x = 285.14. In other words if your DPS is above 285.14 - Choose an AGI gem/enchant over AP gem/enchant, it will increase you DPS more overall. Of course this point will be lowered if you have the Lightning reflexes talent in the survival tree or the Combat Experience talent in the MM tree. --------------------- Added Calculations for Crit rating / AGI --------------------------- Run and hide now!!!! Even more math!!! After I did the above post I started to think - what about +crit? So what about + crit? +22 Crit = 1% crit Performing similar math as above, comparing the +8 crit vs. +8 agi: +8 crit --> 8/22*0.01* x = 0.0036 * x So equating the agi to the crit equations: 0.0036 * x = 0.57 + 0.002 * x --> x = 349.9 Which means that if your DPS is about 349.9, you go with the +8 crit gem as opposed to the +8 agi gem But where does that put +AP vs + crit? 0.0036 * x = 1.14 --> x = 314.3 So overall DPS gain, go with +AP until 285.14, then +AGI until 349.9, then +CRIT for optimal gains. Again talents that make AGI scale will widen the gap for which agi is better. -------- Yet another Edit, Added a way to determine if your new gear will improve your DPS over your current gear ------ Just to make this a little more complete, here is a way to calculate if your new gear is better than your current gear, only taking into account AP, AGI, and CRIT into your total DPS gain. Note that this does not include other essential stats such as MP5, int, stam, etc, as well as talents and procs. Let dAP = (new gear's +AP ) - ( current gear's +AP ) Let dAGI = ( new gear's AGI ) - ( current gear's AGI ) Let dCRIT = ( new gear's +CRIT ) - ( current gear's +CRIT ) Let x be the current DPS with the current gear. so the gain in crit% is: dC% = (dAGI/40 + dCRIT/22)*0.01 and the gain in RAP is: dRAP = dAGI + dAP which yields an average DPS gain of: dDPS = (dRAP/14 + x)*(1+dC%) - x If dDPS is negative, then your average DPS will be lower in your new gear, if your dDPS is positive, than your average DPS will increase with your new gear. I hope that others will find this useful. *** edited to fix some signs (whoopsie) ***

Happy birthday Oriah!

Mez agree wid Bula, Baracko be da Lord ov da Floor, he nub clomp - he be clomped.

Two words - BIG TEETH ::makes a motion indicating big teeth infront of his face::

What he means is that with your crit rate you might get it to stack only a few times before you crit, reseting the chance to crit the trinket gives you back down to 0. you would probably be better off with a static crit chance trinket. i.e. From armory you have a %28.64 crit chance. The wrath trinket provides a +17 crit rating for every non-crit strike until a crit strike lands (which only applies to the next hit, not the current hit). This means that for the first hit you have +0, the second +17, the third +34, the fourth +51, and so on, and also that you need to on average not crit for atleast 4 hits for the wrath trinket to be better than your current trinkets. Unfortunately your crit chance means that on average you will only get 2-3 non crit strikes in a row, meaning that the trinket provide you with an average effective crit rating of +17 to +25.5. e.g. for 25% crit chance - the way the ratings would stack up on average: +0, +17, +34, +51 and *Crit*, +0, +17, +24, +51 and *Crit*, .... which implies a +25.5 average crit rating bonus If your crit chance was below 15% or so, then wrath would be better, above that, get one of the static crit rating trinkets, such as what you already have.

Lat nid a reason for git'n neked ? ::takes off his armor and clothes and runs around camp in his loin cloth, and making mud angels:: ...uhm... ::takes a sniff:: ...dat nub be mud... ::runs over to the grassy hill on the blood elf part of camp and rolls around:: ...much bedder.

Hi, I would just like to add that I can make the Living Dragonscale helm (http://www.wowwiki.com/Living_Dragonscale_Helm) If you'd like me to make you one, supply me the primal lifes and primal manas, and either help me farm the dragonscales or supply the dragonscales to me and I'll craft them for you (my supplies of primal nether not-withstanding). From Kailand

Happy birthday Guilo! may you have many many many more!

I feel dumber for actually reading some of those

Happy Mothers day to all the mommies out there. You put up with all of our (as in children) bad stuff , you celerbrate our successes with us , and worry about us constantly . We really appreciate you, even though at times it becomes a pain in the butt . This day is your day - do what you want to do . All I have to say is YAY for mothers!

It would be easier to get Kara raid groups together if blizzard would minimize the level of healing required - 3 specced healers is too much to ask for except in the most populous raiding guilds, and alot of healers available which are not in kara raids already - no offence meant by this - are sub par healers used to being heal bots, and not paying attention to thier surroundings, which is required in kara. Calendars raid fell apart due to a problem of getting healers that could show up reliably on the weekend, compounded with problem of people not being able to show up due to normal summer time weekend events. Last time we went into karazhan half of our group was no shows and had to be replaced including healers. Attendance issues seem to be getting worse than better, and I know for myself, it's frustrating to have made so much progress, and then the next week not being able to even make it half as far due to no shows, and then waiting an hour or so trying to get substitutes. I believe this is one of the reason's Baracko's raid fell apart. I know that Calendar won't try to 'poach' any of your healers, and he should be told off if he did. Also it should be noted that the raids are not in the same time slots - Arinelles is tuesday and thursday(/friday?), and Calendar wants to move his to thursday and monday. In effect your raid is before his raid in the schedule so there shouldn't be any problems along those lines. As for your comment mentioning you only have 2 crushers in your raid, Calendar only has 5 crushers per day that show up. Maybe the solution for creating an 'all crusher' raid is to cancel the existing ones and figure out who is now keyed, if they are interested in coming which days they would be available, and start a new one - or two depending on how classes/specs/peoples commitments line up. Also your comment about us joining your raid if you want - you already have a more or less full roster, so where are the spots going to be for those that prefer weekday timeslots to go. None of use really want to kick out your current members, nor should you as a raid leader feel compelled to take us either. As for the pool for alts - nobody want to be an alt, they will remain an alt until they find their own Kara raid - and so the pool of alts (especially healers) is non existant. I'm sure Calendar will make his response to this thread soon, and I look forward to his addressing your concerns. **edited to add some more things

Great comic - Thanks for linking it

In response to Scryll's comments: Hmm, I was under the impression that Unleashed Rage, also applied to ranged to, since the description mentions attack power, where as battle shout specifically mentions melee attack power. I will have to test this to see if what you said is true. As for exposed weakness - I'm not sure if it stacks, I haven't had the opportunity to check that out, since survival is still the least spec'd tree, and most do not get far enough in it for expose weakness. Also the forums are no help on that either. It sounds that there probably is a point where WF will be greater than BS or GoA since WF scales with gear, whether the rogues in the raid have reach that point or not is up to them I guess - Although they were calling for WF. In response to Waldonnis: Mages, Hunters, and Rogues (and maybe druids and priests - unsure of that. does reincarnate count for shammies? ::looks at Baracko: all have agro wiping abilities. I'd hope that most of them know when to use it, and as such high agro attacks shouldn't be a primary real concern. I do agree with you that positioning and working together can overcome the incremental buffs, but we do need to take advantage of them if they are there. In response to Ghules: Where is the link

That shouldn't make a diffence, as people get raid ID'd anyways, so there can't be people that do both anyways (except maybe on Alts).

Warning : if you don't like numbers and math , you might want to skip this post The only problem with battleshout is that it only works with melee DPS, not ranged DPS (hunters recieve no benefit). As for Trueshot Aura, only one hunter in the raid has it (Luingwath), I'm survival and as such do not have it, but I do have expose weakness essentially is a raid wide AP buff against the target it procs on (1/4 of the hunter's agility). After the 2.1 patch it should always be up, and raid buffed plus using GoA, my Agi is over 800, which means that expose weakness grants all physical DPS an additional 200+ AP against that target. BM hunters when using thier pet have a talent similar to the shammy Unleashed Rage ability, except it is only a group buff - not a raid buff. Right now for combat rogues the best totem to lay is windfury, for all other rogues it is GoA and then use poisons(or that is what I got out of reading the rogue/shammy forums), so if we have 3-4 combat rogues it probably is better to put them in a group with a shammy for windfury - but in our regular composition with 4 rogues and 1 enhancement shammy in the raid, it may be better for them to get battleshout and the other physical DPS (hunters/feral druids) to get GoA to maximise the raid damage. I haven't crunched the numbers for WF vs Battleshout for rogues and moving the totem to a hunter/feral druid group but I have a feeling it will provide the raid with more damage that way. Maybe a person more familiar with rogue mechanics will want to do the calculations for average DPS with Battleshout vs. average DPS with windfury. I've done a calculation on what GoA will give me and it's contributions to my expose weakness: ->(77{GoA}*1.15{talent agi boost}*1.10{Blessing of kings})=97 agi ->which is 97 AP and 2.4% crit boost for myself ->boost all physical DPS against that target in the raid by (97agi/4)=24 AP via expose weakness. Of course expose weakness procing will only be reliable after the 2.1 patch when it procs on every crit - and raid buffed my crit approaches 50%. On a side note - do rogues have any talents that synergizes well with other classes (I don't think they do, but I could be wrong), like totems do for shammies, LotP/etc for Druids, TSA/expose weaknes/Imp. Huntermark/etc do for hunters, and shouts do for warriors? If they do it may make sense to split them up to create physical DPS groups with a rogue in each one. But of course I will always favour a method that will increase the overall raids DPS/healing/tanking even if my DPS isn't buffed to full potential - to paraphrase JFK: 'And so, my fellow raiders, ask not what your raid group can do for you; ask what you can do for your raid group'

I'd just like to throw around some of my observations, I've already mentioned this to a few others but since crik started a thread on strategies, etc for gruul, I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. One thing I've noticed is that we need to take full advantage of the inter spec/class synergies to maximize everyones DPS. Perhaps it would be better to put a warrior in with the rogues for battle shout, and move the enhancement shammy into a group with hunters and a feral druid, make a caster DPS group with a shammy, moonkin, and mages/lock, and make a tanking group with a lock, the two prot warriors, a feral druid, and one other. For example last night we only had 3 rogues and 2 enhancment shammies, then have the 3 rogues, 1 enhancment shammy with WF totem, and DPS warrior with battle shout together which should increase that groups DPS greatly, and by having the three hunters (all different spec btw), enhancement shammy with GoA totem, and a feral druid together in a group would increase that groups DPS overall too. Similar things also would happen with other class/spec synergies. Additionally, we need to make a strategic plan on where people are during the shatters: I know on more than one occasion last night I had multiple melee running right at me and as a result the shatter killed some of us off. I think we have a very strong group, and we are still learning the encounter. It's a just a matter of time before we get him down. **edit for spelling and grammar

::cries at the fact no one appreciates the cuteness of willy:: I'm gonna be grabbing the one eyed willy! ::waits for the obvious comments::

Something like that would be fun to do. Or even better, a level 1 orc raid on the alliance starting area.

Just one concern about the meetings, I do enjoy them , but wish that they were earlier (say 7:30 pm or so) so that we can do instances, or group quests afterwards. Having meetings at 9:00 prevent people from doing both instances before (not enough time) and after the meeting (getting to late). This would also help with the establishment of a second kara raid, as they could always go after the meeting. As for setting up a second raid, as you can see from the current raid, we have plenty of extra's who are interested in going, so if you start up a second raid I'm sure you'll get plenty to sign up. Cal and I know a few people from smaller guilds that would love to go into kara but they don't have the numbers. Anyways those are my comments based upon the other comments.

Count me in!

Happy Birthday, one of these days your shoulders will drop.

One thing to remember - don't get frustrated. It takes a while to get people to come continuously, and to get the class balance right. What you may have to do initially is grab people who are keyed and aren't part of a current Kara run, regardless of the class balance and just work on downing Attuman, and maybe the animal boss. By doing this you get geared up somewhat, and more importantly get people involved. Those two bosses are relatively quick to do and can be pugged. once you have a good group, then progress on and try Moroes. Additionally, if somebody isn't keyed and wants to go, work to get them keyed, as the more people that are keyed the more varied selection of people you have that can go. Finally if you are having trouble with Attuman and the animal boss, then people need gear up a bit more, and that requires grinding the high level instances, the heroic instances, reputation, and maybe PvP depending on your class. Hope this helps!

Well, that is a good reason, even if it is for the wake up call that people have to sign up ::looks around camp and growls at those who don't::. if you don't sign up, how are people supposed to know you want to go. This applies to both Gruul's lair and the karazahn run(s).

Hopefully they are too busy recovering/changing diapers/feeding/trying to sleep inbetween to worry about us.