Karrock

With the decaying dkp thing and the % of the item as the cost, we may want to start everyone at 100 or maybe the max 250... K

Zu, you do a great job as raid lead, I don't think anyone will question that. You put more time and effort than anyone else in the raid so for people to go beyond making suggestions and to be upset with the way things go is ridiculous. You have to have the attitude of "i have considered all the options and this is how things go" and say f everyone who doesn't like it...because more time than not, you make the vast majority of the ppl in the raid happy. DKP imbalance: It is easy to spot dkp hoarders...they are usually on top of the dkp list. by looking at the current list, i would only feel compelled to look at Marken through Zeniita for possible hoarders...and half of those folks you can dismiss for general transparent knowledge and lack of recent raiding. Once on top of things, doing it on a weekly basis is much easier, and can be broken up amongst the leads (which all in all would probably lead to 1 or 2 people per lead to check up on max). Like anything (e.g. flasks) if people are taken to task long enough it becomes the rule and checking up would no longer be needed. Remember, weapon dkp hits very hard-for those hanging around the top that do not have a weapon upgrade yet will get a quick -300 dkp when they get it...I got back to back drops and was -600 dkp quick for a gun and 2H... Another thing to consider is to have a max dkp limit (say 400). Gaining dkp over 400 would be useless, so ppl would almost be forced to take loot when they get there-plus there may be multiple ppl at the max, in which a roll-off would occur more often, or the choice of most needy could get it. edit: i ramble and my typing is for ###### K

I haven't logged on in a bit so i will try to catch up.... Zu, this dkp sounds good. One suggestion, we need to make all general loot (e.g. trinks, necks, rings, backs) the highest tier of dkp cost. Unfortunately, blizz made these bis items the same/similar for the 3 classes of folks (phys dps, caster dps, healers) so I see these items being more valuable then less. Teph, being the exact opposite of a dkp hoarder, I feel your pain. The good thing is, I do not think this has happened a great deal for the majority of us in the raid...but other people have/are doing it now. I also found it funny that upgrades on "old" content (e.g. sarth) are handed out for free...and in the same breath normal ulduar is not considered old content yet (since the last time we ran it we de'd 95% of the stuff). Kalea, "dkp and loot is secondary to me when raiding" coming from someone that rolls on everything, including stuff you can't use, is hilarious. I laughed quite a bit. Can we stop doing sarth? this OS run is bs and a waste of time-if you want the mount-form a group on your own time and go get it. Orcala is fail. Edit: Uglutz is fail-leave the hookers alone man! Or at least make them wait! K

I won't be here tonight-updated the calendar, told K and sent in game mail to Zu yesterday. K

Is that the gang sign for ARC? K

Very good attempts last night. It won't take much for us to get over the hump. I think the healers, tanks, and positioning were fine. By slowly adding dps to the boss in P3, I think we can get the balance. 1 more should do it, as long as everyone stays alive. At this point, I think the practice time is over and all we have to do is execute. If things do not go well in P1/2 (e.g. not getting through P2 in 3 brain rooms, 2 or more people dying) it may be more beneficial to wipe early and save some time. Extending the lockout: double edge sword really. if it is extended, we wont 1) get keyed for algalon or 2) gear up new folks...but we will most likely kill yogg. I would probably vote to extend it to get a yogg kill under our belts, then go back to the 1 extension max. K

I usually never speak up, but here is my input: 1) finger-pointing is good when you want to make fun of someone, but bad when you are blaming the failure of the raid on that person. I am always in favor of good-hearted ribbing, which I think our raid has the most of. 2) Loot: BiS gear for me comes from ToC, which we can clear, and I am sure this goes for most of us. You should have a list of BiS items and bid on those items (or items that are very close) only. "trying to make something work" is not the best strategy now-make a list and stick to it. 3) dps: please tell me the last time when hit an enrage timer....cause I can't remember that far back. 4) Strategy, living, and people knowing their jobs will win. gear will help us win faster, but focus on your job not someone else's. 5) god damn can a brother get a trophy! K

And when in the brain room, everyone starts at the same point. The folks on the left (portals 2-4 or 5) go to the left to kill adds inside the room and the folks on the right (5 or 6-9) go to the right to kill adds inside the room. I am not sure what Markenfailure (10) does inside the room, but I am almost certain it doesn't have anything to do with healing anyone.... It has been a while since we've been to yogg, so it was good to get the bad out on day 1. I would be very surprised if we didn't down him on Thrusday. K

H) Not surprising in the least Edit: Oh yeah-Orcala you can make the chest piece I am looking for, so if I give you a bunch of mats this week, they will not be donations to make your own item... K

It's a shame we had to cut the raid short last night-I was feeling particularly hateful K

In addition to Waldy's argument-people need to know their role and stick to it. People should not be sacrificing their own duties to try to make up for deficiencies in others. And don't make stuff up on the fly. Planning is golden-if you want to try something, let the leads know beforehand and plan a way to work it in, if viable. And what's up with people not flasking still? I thought this issue was settled...suck it up and flask for the raid...don't ###### and just do it. K

Thanks Kailand. K

Are the links for the raid stats working? I keep getting old stuff only. K

What's the plan for tonight? K

Totally irrelevant, while waiting for the server to come up last night Uggie and I decide to spawn a new thread. The last one got really big and it was time to start fresh. It was getting difficult tracking down the important information. Feel free to continue the conversation here if you like. So can anyone pinpoint the exact moment in time in which humor was totally removed from this raid? K

Waldy posts something like "my precioussss" and I can't reply cause you locked the thread? /fail K

Cal- Can you put together an example of how the 0-100 would work? Couple questions: 1) would you lose your dkp if you bid and didnt win? 2) what would each boss/time be worth? 1, 2, 5 or 10 dkp? 3) would you normalize everyone into the 0-100 range? This is a good idea and i think it might work out for this raid and be the easiest to implement... K

re: trophies under the current system- We could make it mandatory to have enuff badges for the tier item prior to bidding for the trophies. If there is no one eligible (which would be in the early stages only), then it would go to the highest dkp only. This would prevent trophy hoarding and allow those that have done their extra-raid diligence (e.g. daily) to benefit. If you bid on a trophy and show up to the next raid without the tier piece it is a substantial penalty (like -100 dkp). I have to think more about the 0 to 100 system. At first glance the item costs would have to be revisited. re: normalization- With new people joining the raid (+6) there may be a need to do this. K

Tier 9 token cost discussion: Pricing these so low will not provide an even distribution of tier loot. It will: 1) Encourage the raiders with the top dkp to gobble up all trophies, even though they will not be able to use them until they have enough badges 2) Those at the lower end of the dkp table will not get any tokens, even tho they will have enuff badges to use them. You have pointed out the negatives in choosing tier loot over badge loot or regular drops and using this to justify the low price. Essentially what you are doing is taking the decision out of the mix. Now, it is a no brainer-if you had rolled this out prior to ulduar, you would have seen everyone hoarding dkp for this expansion. "Badge cost" is just another factor in choosing, a raider will not compromise crappier gear just for a few badges. Remember, you can get 2 badges per day outside of the raid, this is a potential 14 badges in addition to the raid badges per week (6, 9, 12?). So full clear toc with 7 days of dailys is 26 badges per week. Conclusion: the tier item token cost should be what their equivalent item is. K

I tamed a gorilla the other day-if i can get him leveled to 80 by thurs maybe the extra pummel/stomp will help as well. Any other good pvp pets out there with interrupts/stuns? K

Do we need to organize a quick naxx 25 man to get gear? Say Sunday night? I mean, I don't have any personal agenda in mind when I suggest going there or nothin'.... K

A necessary evil I agree with-thanks for the clarification Zu. 1 Disagreement: we have made progress without Markenfail-sitting him out is no big deal-I can bandage and beat him on the heal meter. <<this is a joke for all of you retards without a sense of humor, e.g. 20/25 ppl in this raid>> 1 Clarification: as far as dkp-if a raider is on time and asked to sit out, they get full dkp for the run, correct? Unless you go to a system in which anyone who gets an item does not acquire any dkp for that entire run from other drops... I will volunteer to sit tonight, although I cannot be online at raid start On a serious note, will you accept voluntary sit-outs? K

As a change of pace, I will not be here next Tuesday. It is a one time thing for the season so no more absences until the holidays...I will update the calendar. K

Zu is absolutely right. The raid leads should get together (3 or 4 ppl max, tank/heal/dps/Zu) and come up with a list of folks in 3 categories: 1) fine, 2) probation (improve or replace), 3) government check (a.k.a. thanks for playing). I loathe people doing dumb sh#t. Of course it happens to all of us from time to time, but some people are "habitual line steppers." Lorgan is also correct, replacements kill the group dynamic. However, these RL times are tough and people need to do what they can-so absences are understandable. Blizzard has made the new content raidable (maybe not hardmodeable) at 23 ppl so a couple subs would be fine. Raiding 3 nights a week would separate the men from the boys. 9/10 casual gamers have other things to do and will not be willing to put in the extra time and we would lose people by attrition (sp?). Bring Sundays back until we achieve our goals. This raid was built (since I have been here) on the 3 night model, and only when we were progressing at a decent pace did we drop the 3rd night. K Edit: one more thing-fix your effing computers. Constantly rebooting before a boss fight is no good-its been years now and you do the same sh#t every week. No more waiting for these people I say pull the boss, let them die. If my pc is a problem one night, a would expect nothing less. Same thing for phantom afkers. Kills raid speed and flow and frankly pisses ppl off. Be considerate and not a douchebag-I know its hard for some people.

Yeah I recall you saying that Waldy, I knew what you expectations were. I guess I was hunting for the quiet ppl's perspective...but then again, the quiet folks are typically the ones who don't participate in the forums. Karrock that statement contradicts itself. You cannot get to Algalon without doing Hard Modes, it's a game pre-requisite. Seems like a lot of folks don't understand that. There's a whole quest line and game mechanics that come into play to even get to Algalon. It was my understanding the first drop was one player per week and not a raid wide quest chain. It is important to get multiple players (3?) keyed in times of absences, but what I was referring to was the routine raiding of hard modes after we have enuff ppl keyed. But I can understand your confusion-I was not clear. Starting Council hard mode soon is important since this is where it starts and what will be the limiting factor getting enuff ppl keyed. I would suggest getting 3 folks on the quest line so we only have to do hard modes once. K