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A continuation on last Tuesday's topic... Icecrown Legendary Distribution Since we are unlikely to complete this, it's a bit of a moot point but regardless... The candidates for the weapon are as follows: Tyrandius Foroshell Maalick Ascoli (sorry Holy, I think that if we ever have you running around without a sword and shield we'd be in bigger trouble) Due to the relatively small pool of potential players and vast differences in roles I would like to opt to try and find a consensus as to who will obtain the weapon. Ideally the person receiving the weapon: - Would be motivated enough to obtain necessary crafting mats both INSIDE and OUTSIDE of raid times - Is loyal and dedicate to the long term success to the raid - Is deserving of the weapon based on past contributions - Will use the weapon to its fullest potential - Will impact the raid the most by having the weapon I would like raiders to please post their opinions on these forums and state who they would like to see with the weapon and why. If you feel too shy about it or would rather not give your opinion publicly please send me either a forum or in-game msg. I hope to come to a decision with the other raid leads as soon as possible.

Quick update: I'm canceling the raids from Dec 22nd until Dec 31st (inclusively) for the holidays. Happy holidays and merry Christmas to all our raiders. Rest up and be prepared to kick ass in the new year! =) P.S: The calendar does not update quite as fast when you delete an event, so the changes won't be reflected right away.

Quick update folks... DKP I've fixed AND updated DKP. Sorry it took so long, the hosting website went down and the mod is a little wonky with automated boss kill awards. At a first look the new system works pretty well, we'll be able to tell in the next coming weeks whether or not it balances out. At this time however, folks will hit the DKP cap after approximately 3 to 4 weeks. Meaning that if you don't bid on an item within a month, you will be rolling off for it with other high DKP folks. Audit Still haven't had time to do an audit, sorry, I will try to get to it as soon as possible. New Recruits We have a new Paladin healer that will be attempting a trial run starting this week. With a little luck they will be able to fulfill our last remaining healer spot. I also have an enhancement shaman in the works but he will not be available until after the holidays. Holidays Same rules as Thanksgiving...IF YOU CANNOT RAID THAN SET YOUR STATUS ACCORDINGLY. I cannot plan raiding evenings if folks don't toggle properly. Tentative Calendar Toggle I know you can now set your status to TENTATIVE within the calender. I'm STRONGLY asking you NOT to use this toggle, it does me no good when trying to plan raids. You might as not reply to the invites for the good it does me. Using the TENTATIVE toggle should be done only in the most extreme cases. ICC Progress Progress is a little slow at the moment, I would like to continue encouraging everyone to read up on the fights and to get geared up. The instances have AWESOME loot that could really boost our numbers in there. Collect those triumph badges as well and try to offset any missing pieces you may need. Regards, Zu

I *HATE* when people immediately assume that we aren't raiding due to server issues. We will attempt to start in ICC, if we encounter issues then we'll try ToC. If problems persist then we'll call it. I'm not going to throw in the towel before we even try! I'm sorry, was I being too realistic for you douches? Ok, let's forget the fact that we have yet to be able to run on a patch day, and we can dismiss the fact that all of the instances are on the same server...instead we should be ultra-optimistic and get our hopes up thinking we are gonna be able to raid! yay! unicorns and rainbows for everyone! Tiz break out your pink bunnies its happy time! Look theres mickey and minnie and that goofy ######! Of course everyone will be there-its the first time we will have a totally full roster with no one volunteering to sit....cept me of course Douche Edit: bass terd? you cant say bass terd on here (spelled properly)? Lame K Let me guess...your mother told you Santa hated you and wasn't giving you any gifts at the age of 4?

I *HATE* when people immediately assume that we aren't raiding due to server issues. We will attempt to start in ICC, if we encounter issues then we'll try ToC. If problems persist then we'll call it. I'm not going to throw in the towel before we even try!

Hi Everyone, The 3.3 patch is in! All DKP has been reset (i.e. erased) and the new rules take effect starting today. I'll be doing the gear audit later this week so please be pro-active and start switching those rare gems to epic gems if you have any. I'd also appreciate if folks could start looking at ICC loot to try and determine what pieces they'd like.

Hehe, that website is actually pretty nifty. Not something that folks should take too seriously mind you. It's one of the better indicators of progress relative to other guilds. I also wanted to make a response in regards to the "first encounters" within ICC... I understand that some folks want to experience the novelty of going into ICC without prior knowledge of the fights. I also understand that there is a good portion of raiders that couldn't care less about "novelty". So I think a compromise needs to be reached... Here is what I'm proposing... *I* don't feel that it would be particularly interesting, practical or even gain us anything if just blindly threw ourselves at a boss. It'd be like throwing rocks at a tank in the hopes of slowing it down. Instead of doing my normal fight explanation, I will abstain from describing any of the bosses abilities. I will however give some instructions to enable folks to at least venture into battle knowing more or less what is they should be doing (i.e. clumping up, spreading out, tanking, imitating a monkey, flinging feces at Kadiana, etc.) I don't mind learning the fights beforehand to do this. For our *FIRST* night in ICC I also won't complain (too much) if folks haven't done their due diligence on the battles. However, this leniency will only be given for the *FIRST* night. After that I expect everyone to do their homework! Zu

I LOL'd at this...it's so true! There hasn't been a single post about any of the ICC encounters. I'm totally expecting that when we reach that first boss in ICC, everyone's just going to turn their heads and wait till I spew out explanations, positions and tactics. So in preparation here some reading material for you folks: Blizzard will be releasing ICC as 4 distinct regions: Lower Spire Plagueworks Crimson Hall Frostwing Hall The release will occur much like ToC, in that each section will be timed a few weeks apart. The first section, Lower Spire, has 4 bosses: Lord Marrowgar Lady Deathwhisper Gunship Battle Deathbringer Saurfang Please go read up on these encounters and look at the tutorial videos, I'm sure they will be instrumental in our success. We'll tackle bosses for the other sections as we move forward. Zu

Thanks for the kind words guys. I will be a bit more diligent in policing DKP, but if any of you notice anything off please let me know as well! I guess it does boil down to DKP system and simply trying to be more aware of things. I did a few adjustments to the DKP plan (please see above).

I admit I haven't been as diligent as Kailand when it comes to verifying the loot being carried by my caster DPS. The reality is that I work 60+ hours a week, I'm more than willing to put in as much time as necessary to administer the raid, but keeping track everyone's gear, their upgrades and their DKP all at once is a commitment FAR beyond what I can invest in. Are there hoarders in the raid? Yes. Did Zeniita abuse the DKP system to get an advantage on loot? Probably but it's hard for me to prove. Do others do the same? I'm convinced of it. Am I willing to police everyone all the time? No. Sounds like a reasonable argument. I'll take it into consideration. I'll admit it is a bit of a time-waster. The reality is that nights where we don't have a full set of key players (tanks & healers) we run out of instances before we run out of time. So we try to fill-in with other activities (Sarth 3D, Ulduar achievements, etc.). If we have the necessary complement of raiders Sarth does not factor in. I'm also unwilling to "call it" just because folks don't feel like raiding in instance where there is no loot for them. DKP Imbalance Yes this is an issue! What do you want me to do about it? How can I possibly control this? I can try to be more watchful, but what more can I do?!

You can still bid with 0 DKP Kalea. 10%, 20% or 30% of 0 is still 0 I don't think our raid is too loot-centric, if that were the case everyone would've dropped the second we started Ulduar Hard Modes. My expectation is that folks "know" what they need/want and DKP is simply a system that juggles and balances out the loot accordingly. DKP is not something people should think about or strategize with, it's just something "in background" used by the raid leader to handle loot.

Hi everyone, Well it looks like the 3.3 patch may be coming out in the next couple of weeks. So I think it's important that I outline what my intentions are following the release of this patch. As always, I'm open to suggestions, please free to express them NOW (as opposed to AFTER 3.3 comes out and changes are made). Raid Schedule Given the current farm status of ToC (I know that statement is somewhat subjective), I'm aiming to reduce our raiding schedule to exclusively hit Icecrown Citadel (ICC). Note that ICC will NOT be fully available upon release. The schedule will work based on instance priority. These priorities should align with our objectives (I hope). The following is the order in which we will tackle the instances: 1) ICC (until we hit the last boss that is available) 2) Onyxia 3) ToC 4) Raid Daily 5) VoA 6) Ulduar (Hard Modes) DKP Alright, I didn't get the level of response I was hoping when I first started talking about this. So here is where I stand: Pros of our current system: - Easy to understand - Easy to use - Decent amount of loot distribution Cons of our current system: - Puts folks who have bad gear at a disadvantage (DKP holes) - Is prone to abuse (DKP hoarding) - Favors new recruits with 0 DKP - Stagnates as folks gear up - Does not penalize people who miss raids - Does not reward effort Ideal System: - Gives DKP best on effort and time put in - Encourages people to participate - Excellent loot distribution - Makes it impractical to hoard or splurge on DKP So here is what I've come up with: - Minimum DKP: 0 - Maximum DKP: 250 - DKP per hour: 10 - DKP per boss: 5 - DKP decay per day: (-15) - DKP Prices: - 25% for all items ***UPDATED!!!*** - Same penalties apply: - (-5) DKP for any missing food or flask buff - (-20) DKP for being late - (-40) DKP for not showing up - Since the above system does not work with negative DKP, if you find yourself beneath 0, you will be prohibited to bid on any items until you get back into positive values. (Exemption: If the item is about to get DE'd or given to a replacement). So I think by going with Waldy's % based item costs it makes the whole process a little less linear. There is a direct and significant impact on people's DKP standing regardless of if they have hoarded their points for weeks or find themselves constantly at 0. Yes this means that all items have a variable cost; an item you paid 50 DKP for might be sold at 20 DKP to another person. There is an invisible cost associated with obtaining an item first or for waiting too long before bidding for something (this is the only way to mitigate hoarding). DKP Reset ***UPDATED!!!*** Based on recent discussions, observed behaviors and the unknowns of the new system I'm instead opting for a full reset (everyone starts at 0). First drops will be determined via rolls. Gear Requirements I'm increasing the minimum gear requirement to now include epic gems. Once patch 3.3 comes out all raiders are required to appropriately enchant all their gear and gem them with EPIC quality gems. There are no exceptions. Penalty for not meeting this requirement is (-10) DKP per raid night. A full gear audit will occur shortly after 3.3 comes out. Well I guess that's about it, any questions? Regards, Zu

Hey Waldy, Just wanted to say, I didn't forget your previous DKP post. I do reference it and will take it into consideration. For those who are interested in Waldy's old post you can read it here: http://www.thehonorempire.org/forums/index...ost&p=67245 Just a few points I wanted to clarify: - Any changes to the DKP system will take effect only AFTER Icecrown Citadel is out - Current system will remain in place until then - The options I listed are the ones that are convenient for me to implement, I do not endorse or condone any one option - I will wait until I get input from the raid before I give my own

Thanks Markenhoof... I tend to agree with a lot of what you're saying. DKP is being talked about now because when this stuff changes I'd rather not have folks crying about how they didn't know. (Nothing seems to irk people more than when you start playing with their DKP). As for hard modes, if you have suggestions go right ahead and post them, I'm all ears.

DKP System Hey everyone, This is the second time I want to serious tackle the topic of DKP within the raid. I admit that must attempt to introduce change did not pan out because it was done too close to the release of ToC. This time however, Icecrown Citadel is still some time away, it should give us more room to discuss and agree on changes. So here is what we have today: - ZeroSum (DKP bid gets redistributed to the raid) - Fixed item cost (item prices are preset based on iLvl and slot) - Auction based distribution (ppl have to bid) - Penalty based DKP loss (i.e. missing flasks, food buffs, etc.) - Off-spec items can be rolled on or bought (at full price) Here are some of the options I would be willing to adopt (doesn't need to be ALL or any one particular option): Gaining DKP: - ZeroSum (give out X DKP when an item is purchased) - Raid presence (give out X DKP per hour or some arbitrary time slot) - Boss kills (give out X DKP per boss kill) - Raid attendance (give out X DKP when you show up) Item Cost: - Fixed (item cost is pre-calculated) - Variable (item cost is based on the amount bid by players -- could have min/max values -- silent or public auctions) Distribution: - Bidding - Loot council (this can mean anything really -- it involves raid leads stepping in and managing the distribution somehow) - Round-robin Losing DKP: - Penalty based (i.e. not following raid policies) - DKP loss based on attendance (ppl naturally lose X DKP every raid -- i.e. your DKP "erodes" over time) Other Options: - Instate a minimum and/or maximum amount of DKP any one person could have - Off-spec items can be rolled on - Off-spec are all for sell for a small DKP premium So I tried giving out all the different options I had in mind. There are some restrictions in what I can and what I'm willing to do. I'm still gonna base our DKP system on the webdkp mod and website and I'm going to restrict our DKP capabilities based on these mechanisms. If I don't do this than maintaining DKP becomes far too time consuming. Please give me your opinions, let me know which options you like and which you don't. Regards, Zu

Thanks Maalick... To everyone else... Like I mentioned in Tuesday's raid, it's understandable that people will want to take off for Thanksgiving. All I ask is that you please update your attendance status on the calendar. The more informed I am the better off I'll be to make a call as to whether we are raiding regardless, canceling or maybe forming some kind of 10man run or retro run. Thank you for being considerate, Zu

Real raiders don't have holidays! Now get back to perfecting those rotations!

Hey Kalea, I hear ya! At this point I think it's pretty clear to everyone how the scheduling is going to work out: - Tuesdays will ALWAYS be ToC followed by Ulduar Hard Modes - Thursdays will ALWAYS be Ulduar Hard Modes followed by Onyxia - We will NOT reset the Ulduar ID - We will NOT tackle ToGC until we have completed a significant number of hard modes We can clear VoA, ToC and Onyxia in under 1.5h. To those of you who are not interested in doing Hard Modes or Heroics, I ask: "What do you want to do? Nothing? Farm Ulduar for shards?" If that's the case than please let me know. I'll bump you down to replacement and we'll try and get motivated folks who's goals align with the majority. ======================= Ultimately, what I see happening is the raid is turning a new page. We are tacking the next level in difficult and as such we need to prepare ourselves in consequence. Folks need to figure out new ways of improving themselves, they need to come prepared, have their gems and enchants in order. All the things we have said since the beginning only become more important. If someone has survived with one or two bad enchants/gems up till this point well that isn't going to work anymore. If you've lived with 2 flasks per raid instead of 3, that too will need to change. Every ounce of performance needs to obtained from every player. As raid lead here are some the issues I have to contend with: How do I make sure that folks perform to the best of their abilities? Do I have recheck everyone's gear? Spec? Buff? Do I slam a DKP stick for every offence? How do I enable newer players and get them on par with veterans? Do I prioritize them in the roster? Do I prioritize loot to them? What happens if they quit the raid? How do I deal with less able players? How do I get them to click their buttons better? How do I get them to not stand in volcanoes? What do I do about unmotivated players? How do I know when a player is no longer motivated? How do I get them motivates? Do I even want to keep that player? The reality is that the list goes on and on. Beyond what I'm currently doing, how else do I address these issues and is it even possible to fix these? I often find myself taking a step back and realizing that there simply isn't much that I can do. I don't know you people personally, I'm not aware of every intricate detail of your characters. You either want to perform well or you don't really care, no amount of berating is going to change that. ======================= So here's a question I pose to the raid in its entirety: Given my limited power to actual do something about low performing players, the only real factor for changing raid dynamics is replacing people. Regardless of past threats and whatnot, we can as a group consent to do this. Taking this route changes the raid composition dramatically, forget raiding with friends, you'll be raiding with strangers. All spots are up for grabs and you are judge solely based on your abilities, gear and numbers. Is this a route we want to take?

Hi folks, I'm putting an announcement here first so that it gets distributed among friends and family before anyone else... We currently have 2 to 4 open spots in our 25man raid roster. We are currently looking for: 2 or 3 melee DPS, and 1 caster DPS Our requirements are as follows: - You must have Ulduar experience (10 or 25man) - You must have ToC experience (10 or 25man) - You gear iLvl must average at least 220 - You must know your role, your class and your spec - You must be able to determine your proper loot upgrade path Like to haves: - Folks that are familiar with Ulduar Hard Modes If you think you can fit the bill or have potential please send me an in-game mail or whisper! Best regards, Zu

After weeks of endless and merciless battle our brave raiders have put an end to the Old God of Death's reign of terror. Yogg-Saron, banished god of the titans, has been defeated. Congratulations to all our raiders! After many weeks of wiping we can finally close this chapter and move on to greater challenges.

Everyone ready to kick Anub'arak in the face tonight?! We're following the same deal as last Monday: VoA (if it's up) Onyxia ToC Also, I found this little gem the other night and it immediately reminded me of Kalea and Uglutz

The task really isn't such a tall order. Most of the veterans will require only items from ToC with a few trinkets and whatnot from hard modes in Ulduar. The newer folks have a bigger job ahead of them (they are the ones I'd like to see putting in major effort into this). The idea here is two fold: A) Get people researching their gear and class mechanics B) Determining where the upgrades are for the new folk so as to avoid anymore of these "ninja" scenarios. 95% of the time I assume that the list someone gives me for ToC-normal will be the same for ToC-heroic (same items, different iLvl). Ulduar is different in the sent that the hard modes yield different loot. People have a rough idea of what they want/need, if a veteran player only browses the gear in Ulduar and tells me he's done, who am I to question? In terms of heroics...Ulduar Hard Modes are coming right after Yogg-Saron. Heroic ToC we're no where close to that!

Wow I'm impressed Ugz! Your healer crew is on the ball. I got a total of 0 lists :S So here's a reminder of what I want: - ALL dropped loot that is part of an upgrade path for you - I want normal modes, hard modes and heroic - Only write down 25man raid instance items - If you don't do 10man stuff don't plan on getting 10man items (d'uh) - Identify what is Best-in-Slot (BiS) and what isn't We have a lot of "newer" folks, meaning this a much bigger job for you guys. I expect there to be plenty of loot left in Udluar for you guys. I DO NOT WANT TO SEE TOC LOOT EXCLUSIVELY. Be honest on what you can use. I will also be setting up a caster channel: CScasters please join it!

My intent was to make a post regarding the brain room. Obviously both Holy and Ascoli beat me to the punch. So I'll just add to their post and copy-paste the assignments for tonight LEFT SIDE 1 - Kailand 2 - Karrock 3 - Maalick MIDDLE 4 - Foroshell 5 - Genraku 6 - Ascoli RIGHT SIDE 7 - Elrikk 8 - Sneekeh 9 - Orcala HEALER 10 - Markenhoof Ascoli provided a really detailed layout of how DPS should be done within each room. I don't know that we are capable of managing such coordinated DPS. I know that sounds really bad, but can anyone give me decent assurance that it won't take Orcala 20 attempts before she figures out which tactic she's got to use in the room she ports into? So my tactic for now is: Keep it simple... 1, 2, 3 go left 4, 5, 6 go right 7, 8, 9 go middle Markenhoof go center and heal

Wipes Live with it. If you complain too much, don't expect to get invited often. The scary thing I'm noticing is that the majority of these complaints come from our REGULAR folks!!! It's not the new people whining, it's the veterans! I also see a lot of hypocrite folks preaching about how wipes are a part of raiding, but they are the first to blow up and have a ###### fit when we do wipe. Take a long hard look at your own behaviors, try calming yourselves down when we are facing a particularly difficult boss (and yes these instructions also apply to myself). (I know my statement makes it appear like I'm targeting the previous posters -- I'm not, I'm targeting the raid in general, just to be clear.) Loot When we switched to a rotational roster I wanted to address this, however I think everyone agreed that it might be too much change to deal with all at once. So we are stuck with the system we have today. Other than making announcements reminding folks to be considerate I don't see what else I can do. Normalize again? My only suggestion here is to perhaps get raid leads involved. Resurrect the whole "give my your loot list" and perhaps have raid leads pseudo-manage loot distribution (kind of like loot-council even though I hate that term since it brings with it all kinds of preconceptions). As caster DPS lead, this is the route I will take. I will start requesting folks for their lists soon. When raiders bid I will try to correlate the bidders with their list and if I can see a better distribution I will veto the bid (as diplomatically as possible). Does that sound like a good plan? Do other raid leads want to do the same? (BTW: The reason why I stopped collecting raid-wide lists is because it quickly became overwhelming. I got flooded with massive amounts of items from difference sources and couldn't manage all the data in an efficient manner.) Blame Vs. Poking Fun And once again the thin line between being funny and being mean was crossed. We have folks now who completely refuse to talk on TS (and I don't only mean Kadi) and we have folks who feel like complete ###### at the end of the night. The people who are the most prone to this kind of verbal abuse are the ones who talk on TS the most often (and I admit I sometimes fall into that category). If you find yourself being upset, overly excited or intoxicated, please refrain from talking on TS. And if you suffer from a disease that forces you to press that push-to-talk button please do not call out folks in the raid. We don't need blame and I'd rather raid in silence than leave the computer feeling like ######. If I start asking folks reasons for wipes than that is my prerogative. It's up to the raid lead to make necessary adjustments to tactics and player assignments. In the case where weak players are identified it's up to me to deal with them (light the fire under their asses if need be). IT IS NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DO SO (and I don't care if it's just for fun or if the person you're berating is your best friend). This is something I've been meaning to change, but it's difficult and not an easy process. I will try to call out the folks that make TS unpleasant more often and hopefully try to calm down a situation before it gets out of hand. TLDR Wipes: Deal with it. Veteran players ######ing about it reek of burn out. Loot: Pseudo-loot council? Are raid leads on board with this idea? Blame, TS: If you're unpleasant STFU. Don't call out players (for ANY reason). You will be prompted if you're overly rowdy on TS.